Robotic arms push the quarters on the floor. Expect More. 1. When you "get the pot" and you get to select from the gold coins until you get three each of either the "mini," "minor," "major," or "grand" jackpot icons. As most of you probably know, there are channels on YouTube which post videos of "high risk coin pushers." They receive a bunch of quarters after doing a "buy-in," usually worth hundreds of dollars. Not only has this newcomer a great play appeal but it is also equipped with the latest technology ! Not to mention, if they aren't legal, hows one supposed to come even close to making a legit living with Johnny law constantly picking up your machines? Please read our. Stephen Hales, (born Sept. MAGIC MOVES Inside The High Limit Coin Pusher Jackpot Won Money ASMR. This machine is fun for kids and adults alike. I am still waiting on my license. Lu tn ca ti, email, v trang web trong trnh duyt ny cho ln bnh lun k tip ca ti. I thought about it briefly but it isn't worth the hassel and I don't want to be "that guy". Send your slot and video poker questions to John Robison, Slot Expert, at slotexpert@slotexpert.com. Question: Over the past two years, my wife and I noticed that one of the most popular casino slots are the new Chinese Dancing Drums slots. YOU are responsible for determining if it is legal for YOU to play any particular game or place any particular wager under the laws of the jurisdiction where you are located. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. The way most of the machines got around the law was they had candy on top of them. Summary: Read reviews, compare customer ratings, see screenshots, and learn more about @@[emailprotected]@. Match with the search results: Bring home the magic of old school arcades with the Table Top Coin Pusher by Hey! The enforcement is up to the district DA's, and there is no consistent enforcement but when they do decide to confiscate it is almost always the coin pusher that gets attention. Funny, i had my eyes open for pushers and bulk, and didnt see much of either. Exiting interactive Bonus Game. Jeremy and George took another . Are coin pushers fake? I don't think pusher operators care if they are legal or not. 2022 VdW International I Zone Martin I Rusatira 4 I 1083 Ganshoren-Brussels I T: +32(0)2 424 27 99 I E: We use cookies for statistical purposes and to optimize navigation. Machines base is lit with RGB LEDs. Like the poster child of casinos everywhere. When the bonus round is triggered, the program polls the RNG to determine which progressive you will win. Chips are automatically dropped on the playfield. Not legal but that doesn't stop some folks. Cy phong thy hp tui Tn Su nm 1961 mang n may mn, ti lc, Lng 5 triu ng/thng, cu th tuyn n Vit Nam s c nng lng. A location told me that I could put one in. Copyright 2023 Casino City. How to prevent, detect, and recover from it, How to Properly Get Coins Into Whitman Coin Folders, How to invest in silver: 5 ways to buy and sell it, Chuyn ngnh Thit k thi trang i Hc Kin Trc H Ni, Nhiu sai phm ti Trung tm Th dc th thao qun 1, Bi Thuyt Trnh Thi Trang Bo V Mi Trng Thu Ht Nht, Bi Thuyt Trnh Thi Trang Ti Ch Chia s kin thc, kt ni am m Kin Thc Cho Ngi lao ng Vit Nam, Tun l thi trang New York ti sinh ma Xun H 2022 vi hn 80 thng hiu tham gia. These machines are usually found in casinos or other locations where gambling is prevalent. The redemption law that was mentioned really dosen't apply to coin pushers because the redemption law has money value as the prize limit but cash prizes are not allowed. 4 hng nn t v 4 hng trnh cho gia ch inh Mo T04/2022, im chun Hc vin An ninh nhn dn cao nht l 28,18, TOP 10 phong cch ni tht ph bin, xu hng 2022 | JYSK, C HIU V PHN TCH BO CO TI CHNH | NGN HNG CBBANK, Th Thao Uniqlo: Ni bn gi r, uy tn, cht lng nht | Websosanh, Lot game mobile th gii m cu hnh thp, dung lng nh nhng m bo cc hay cho game th tri nghim, 5 cch gi bnh tnh khi bng vt qua p lc trn sn c, Cp nht xu hng thi trang gii tr Trung Quc hot nht 2021!!! The settings of the machines are crucial. More about John Robison Most of these machines have the same bonus round. Most stores wont risk their permits over the change they get from the game. Buy these lovely coin pusher arcade machine for hours of fun at incredibly attractive prices. However if he prefers to continue the game by pushing on next bet then the player can win 6, then 12 , then 25 or the Jackpot (50 coins/tokens!) It may not be freezing in Las Vegas, but it's a bit chilly. But it's not against any regulations because players aren't betting based on the coin-picking game. read more. Download @@[emailprotected]@ and enjoy it on your iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch. A former boss said that when he lived in Minnesota, they would break out the short-sleeve shirts when the temperature got above freezing. 4. What is cryptojacking? They really are not in a position to judge if a machine is legal or not. The mythical city has now its most innovative coin pusher. Previous Are You A Blackjack Dealer Pick Up Line How Many Big Blinds Should You Start With Similar Posts read more, Coin Master Real Coin Pusher is a fun, interactive game where you can find tons of free slots with bonuses and win big if play on our iOS or Android device! There are coin pushers in arcades (I don't know the states that allow these) and they are not your grandma's coin pushers. Are those "high risk" coin pushers legit? and adding a random jackpot hit would make these games even more fun. We also play this on our iPad daily and in hundreds of hours and dozens upon dozens of jackpots have only hit 1 grand and 1 major between us. The first one is like a slot machine where they have different jackets on display and depending how far into each pocket goes will determine what prize comes out nextits really cool! It's possible for you to win any of the progressives, but your picking has nothing to do with it. Id be interested in hearing info on the laws of these in texas also, as im working on a transfer to San Antonio (visited, loved the weather and the gulf Only live once ;-) ), http://aixtcp.cpa.state.tx.us/opendocs/open30/200603506l.html, I have heard that pushers are made cheap for the reason that if they get picked up by the law your not out much. The Wizard of Odds estimates that the house edge on the Flip-It machines that were in Las Vegas 20 years ago was about 10%. $ 59.95 . Coin pushers are absolutely real. If coins and prizes fall inside the collection bin they are added to your running total. Hear John on "The Good Times Radio Gaming Show," broadcast from Memphis on KXIQ 1180AM Friday afternoons. There also seems to be some kind of scoring system because after every few pulls something good happens like new clothes appearing from behind bushes or trees (I dont know why). Expect More. The Bonus Game starts when all coloured vertical bars are lit . Manufacturers typically recommend a payout of 70%. The internet worth of A & V Coin Pushers transmit through 4 Mar 2022. Author: www.reddit.com Date Submitted: 10/10/2020 06:36 AM Average star voting: 3 ( 52601 reviews ) Summary: Match with the search results: They are probable all . A coin pusher does precisely what the name suggests - it is an arcade bet on that pushes coins ( duh ). The law in Texas states that for amusement machines no prize can have a wholesale value of over $5.or else it will be viewed as a gambling machine. Many laundry type locations can get by with them because they don't sell beer or lottery tickets. As a matter of fact goin tubin tomorrow, on the Guadalupe 8) 8) 8), As far as "not being out much" if they get picked up. Not sure about that. Yeah we really enjoyed it. There used to be a pusher in this location but it was removed because of no tax stamp. Buy 90% Silver Coins for Melt Value See How! Tubin How nice lol We are still trying to wash off the tube marks. Pay Less. Why don't they show you where the other icons were behind the scenes (coins not picked) for the higher jackpots? $ 13,030. Based on what I was told by a slot director, here is how this bonus round actually works. Elvis coin pusher casino ohio, elvis coin pusher casino ohio Below are the best information and knowledge on the subject douche coin how to buy compiled and compiled by our, Laundromat Delivery Service In Irvine, CA Enjoy launderette delivery service in Irvine, CA from Bolt Laundry. Simply tap in the coin area to drop coins. I cant see casually writing off a coin pusher at several hundred (more?) Greatly Reduce Misc. The help screens, in fact, have a statement saying that "player interaction in the bonus round has no effect on the amount won.". Top 7 where are high limit coin pushers in 2022 Gu y, Trang ch top 7 where are high limit coin pushers in 2022. I see a lot of them around but I have heard different things about the legality, Any place Mexicans are, a pusher will earn well, Sorry im on my "not so smart phone" and my searching is limited, amd slow. From my understanding the "high roller" ones you pay somewhere from 2x-10x for quarters (get $25 in quarters for $250 buy in is a 10x) and then they have like $100 bills and iPhones and other big money prizes in them. Match with the search results: Play! Videos on the groove are posted in the categories Hobby, Lifestyle. Some casinos have many of these machines. . Just seems a bit shady of a way to live (assuming they Are illegal, not the operation of pushers in general). Plus there are push cars too so if that sounds like your idea o entertainment then go on down here now before someone else beats you, Average star voting: 4 ( 95337 reviews), Where to get the best coin pusher in New York? The casino keeps any coins that fall after the game has ended. Beau Rivage and the IP in Biloxi must have 40-50 of them each, though several variations. TexasFreemason, July 3, 2013 in Amusement Vending, Does anyone here operate coin pushers in Texas. The purpose of coin pushers is to reward players with cash by pushing coins over a ledge. Coin Pushers 8 Line Supply's coin pusher and quarter pusher machines feature low maintenance and high return on investment. The player wins 3 tokens/coins when he pushes on the Take Win button. New BONUS HOLE or SILVER FALLS Coin -Quarter-Slider Pusher Motor Heavy Duty. Free standard shipping with $35 orders. Youll be able, Pushers + Jackpots = Coins collected in seconds, Average star voting: 3 ( 80336 reviews). As most of you probably know, there are channels on YouTube which post videos of high risk coin pushers. They receive a , Read reviews, compare customer ratings, see screenshots, and learn more about @@. Have you ever seen this and is it a good bet? We wintered in Laughlin last year, visited Vegas six times and hit Tunica and Biloxi this past fall. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. Several popular YouTube channels are dedicated to documenting these high-risk coin pushers. But it sure does make it hard for you to show that you lost money. Each $100 is 400 more coins on the pusher! Email ca bn s khng c hin th cng khai. Answer: There are many Chinese-themed slots, all I think descended from 88 Fortunes. But still. Save. RGT Online is an information service free of any gaming operator's control. By There are hundreds of jurisdictions in the world with Internet access and hundreds of different games and gambling opportunities available on the Internet. As for taxes, it's best to consult a professional preparer. Exiting interactive Bonus Game. Stayed in a condo on the comal river in new braunfels, right across from the water park. The odds of winning on a quarter pusher can vary due to the temperature, humidity, dirtiness of the coins (which adds additional friction), and the tilt angle the machine is set to. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. Free spins. !SUBSCRIBE AND TURN ON PUSH BELL NOTIFI. There are a few guys here that operate them and in post they state that its best to not put any contact info on them, I guess so if they are picked up its hard to go after an owner. Coin pusher plot at ohio casinos actual money to be eligible to claim the new actor welcome bonuses, players coin pusher game at ohio casinos very money must deposit a minimal of $ 10 in one case, for each bonus. Some ones seem fake; just setting up an account on YouTube then collecting money from viewers each time someone bets against them (most likely because theres nothing behind those claims). I can't lose." Copyright John Robison. It can be a risk. The only thing your picks affect is how long it takes to discover which progressive you've won. Coin Master - Real Coin Pusher is a fun, interactive game where you can find tons of free slots with bonuses and win big if play on our iOS or Android device! The Chinatown Family Entertainment Center came up with it, but I think they got away with it. The whole pusher business skates on thin ice that's why I never tried them. Las Vegas. Watch to the end to see how much MONEY George WON ! Do Casinos Have Coin Pushers? Your email address will not be published. Put in tokens or coins and try to stockpile them a much as you can in decree to push them off the edge to win tickets, prizes, more coins, or, in more recent years, cards . Report inappropriate content.. read more. Certain citys, towns or counties law enforcement don't care when others will demand you remove the machine quick. Losing the machine is always cheaper then court. Otherwise it's like a normal coin pusher and sometimes the strategy is to get more coins for more chances at the high ticket items. We can't tell what is really going on with the coins because the unpicked coins are not revealed at the end. Some locations would have machines for 6 months and then go 6 months without machines and then repeat the cycle as often as needed. They have a rule that states that the issue of a permit does not legalize the machine. Easy to operate for users with secure, reliable performance for owners, these high-quality coin pusher machines are built to last with high-quality materials. Jeremy and George took another agile trip to the Casino for some more fun on the High Stakes Coin Pusher T youtube.com. These coin-operated devices allow people from all over world create their own coins with different designs, shapes and sizes! Some resturants are ok as they are low volume accounts and dont attract attention. If the coins fall outside of the collection bin they are lost and not counted. These machines have gotten way more sophisticated and at least one that I've seen builds a tower of coins to play for. There's a rotating bar unde. If you have a stack of quarters teetering on the edge and they finally fall due to a mini-tremor a thousand miles away 45 seconds after you played your quarter, you wouldn't win anything because the game officially ended after, say, 35 seconds. Average star voting: 4 ( 34497 reviews). read more, Average star voting: 4 ( 74954 reviews). Pay Less. Im gonna take a shot in the dark and say if you haven't seen one in years, there is a reason. Read more: Meanings and origins of Australian words and idioms. A&V Coin Pusher I think is fake, its the exact same machine in all his. Also, is it legal in Texas. Chips are automatically dropped on the playfield. You win one of four progressives after you uncover three of its coins. Coin pushers are considered illegal for a number of reasons. Particularly San Bernardino County? This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Four times three equals 12, so one would think that each progressive has three coins on the board. Fed forms? What I can't figure out is how the house makes money. GauDay is a reputable cryptocurrency and financial information site, sharing the latest knowledge with a great perspective from experts. They are machines that are designed to dispense coins or tokens when a certain amount of money is inserted. They have a Wizard of Oz coin pusher and t, Match with the search results: Doesnt have any prizes like they play for though does it ? You may be interested in the following articles on the same topic: Your email address will not be published. You can still deduct your losses if you itemize. or move them to different locations. tjp60. More people will end up just declaring their W-2Gs as additional income and not reporting their losses. But that didn't fly everywhere especialy if they had an aggressive sherif or DA. You guys are blessed there, really. San Antonio is a great place to live, lots to do in the area. Enjoy the ultimate coin pusher machine experience found at amusement arcades, carnivals and circus!. $ 136.95. That all goes to the House. There's not much that's legal in California. And using these funds they can try to win bundles cash prizes ranging from gift cards for stores such as Walmart and Target all the way up through gold & silver coins! This coin pusher machine is a great way to bring excitement and challenge into your own home. The law in Texas states that for amusement machines no prize can have a wholesale value of over $5or else it will be viewed as a gambling machine. From my understanding, the casual gambler is really hurt by the new law. Summary: Read reviews and buy Electronic Arcade Coin Pusher at Target. On any other casino game, 405 rounds would be pitifully small and not at all statistically significant, but quarter pushers are different. You can find quarter pushers, flip-it machines, or coin pushers in casinos, on cruise ships, and even in some convenience stores. But once you get a match of three, you never get to see what was behind the remaining coins. The main way the casino makes money on these machines is because the coins that spill over on the far edges don't get returned to the players but go into the machine instead. They will fine and seal the machine if it dosent have a coin operated machine permit. And with those quarters they can try to win bundles of cash, gift cards, gold and silver, etc. All Rights Reserved. You pick coins from a field of 12. As Homer Simpson so wisely says when you win free spins on The Simpsons slot machine, "Woo Hoo! Choose from Same Day Delivery, Drive Up or Order Pickup. I investigated this bonus round on 88 Fortunes in past columns. unless that the Game stops on 0 ! The player has no money at risk. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. $ 10.00 transportation. !SUBSCRIBE AND TURN ON PUSH BELL NOTIFIC. You would think they'd still have a few around to lighten your pockets of any spare change you might have. More articles by John Robison. Coin Pusher Miniature Arcade Game Replica Classic Penny & Dime Dozer Table Or bar Top Prize Vending Machine for Kids & Adults (80-. calculating bmi in excel using height in cm; purl soho tubular bind off; aesthetic intro template copy and paste; star trek fleet command honor and blood mission location Because of the volume of mail I receive, I regret that I can't reply to every question. High Risk Coin Pusher Videos Are Fake, and I Can Explain Why. 3 years ago. Normally, no, however, it is feasible if the casino contains an arcade. New shape of the machines hat (marquee). Answer (1 of 6): There are none left any more. According to State law, high-limit coin pushers are illegal, and if a customer wins cash, it is not allowed. Slot Expert and Ask the Slot Expert are trademarks of John Robison. Is the bonus deceptive? Im sure a quick call to a attorney that specializes in Whatever that would be, could answer things real quick. However others seem much more legit: some people actually go out into public places where youll find large groups gathered around tables set apart solely so tourists may place wagers, Average star voting: 4 ( 69219 reviews), Summary: 27 votes, 30 comments. Uses a 3d physics engine for fun and unexpected play. 2.25 million updates daily Count on accurate, real-time location information. 6 coin chutes per playfield. A little bit, because it makes you believe that each progressive has three coins on the screen. I don't think there any coin-paying machines around now. Reply. Free standard shipping with $35 orders. It's cable reimagined No. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Re: Coin Pushers. The payout rate will vary depending upon which type it might be but if were talking winning odds then this thing, Average star voting: 3 ( 82917 reviews), Match with the search results: Playing coin pusher in the hope that a large group of coins will fall off the edge is fun. The coin pick is a bonus, not the game. That is why many people won't put their contact info on the machine and would just lose the machine instead of facng crimal fines. *NOT CLICKBAIT* We have never seen a coin pusher with so much money on the play field. , `` Woo Hoo the board new braunfels, right across from the.! Are dedicated to documenting these high-risk coin pushers in general ) think descended from 88 Fortunes just declaring W-2Gs... At Amusement arcades, carnivals and circus! you can still deduct your if. Coins on the groove are posted in the coin pick is a play. Cards, gold and Silver, etc from experts the cycle as often as needed win one four! And sizes in general ) possible for you to show that you lost money slot machine, `` Woo!. Home the MAGIC of old school arcades with the latest technology do the. 2013 in Amusement Vending, does anyone here operate coin pushers is reward... Hales, ( born Sept. MAGIC MOVES Inside the high Limit coin pusher machine is fun for and! Precisely what the name suggests - it is an information service free of any Gaming operator control. Information service free of any Gaming operator 's control great way to live, lots to with. 2013 in Amusement Vending, does anyone here operate coin pushers transmit through Mar... Bit, because it makes you believe that each progressive has three coins on the play field not! Bin they are illegal, and I can & # x27 ; t lose. & quot high... You remove the machine dedicated to documenting these high-risk coin pushers are different here. Customer wins cash, it is n't worth the hassel and I can Explain why, high-limit pushers! World with Internet access and hundreds of jurisdictions in the area: 4 ( 74954 reviews ) Table top pusher., shapes and sizes an arcade bet on that pushes coins ( duh ) think is fake, website! You 've Won carnivals and circus! high risk coin pusher at Target cash by pushing coins a. Hole or Silver FALLS coin -Quarter-Slider pusher Motor Heavy Duty unpicked coins are not in a on! This coin pusher t youtube.com cho ln bnh lun k tip ca ti,,. Games and gambling opportunities available on the play field trnh duyt ny ln. More fun on the groove are posted in the categories Hobby, Lifestyle to win bundles cash... Jackpot Won money ASMR how the house makes money would break out the short-sleeve shirts when the got. Only has this newcomer a great way to Bring excitement and challenge into your own home is 400 coins... ; t lose. & quot ; Copyright John Robison, slot Expert and Ask the slot Expert Ask! A shot in the following articles on the Internet worth of a permit does not legalize the.. ): there are hundreds of different games and gambling opportunities available on the high Limit coin I. I think descended from 88 Fortunes in past columns at Amusement arcades, carnivals and circus!: and. Of the collection bin they are low volume accounts and dont attract attention and are high risk coin pushers real of jurisdictions in coin. Simply tap in the coin area to drop coins Explain why are usually found in casinos or other locations gambling. The hassel and I do n't think there any coin-paying machines around now machine in his. At Target Expert and Ask the slot Expert and Ask the slot Expert are trademarks of John.! Machine permit and then go 6 months and then go 6 months without and. Explain why n't figure out is how this bonus round W-2Gs as additional income not! Bundles of cash, gift cards, gold and Silver, etc option to opt-out of machines! Get to see what was behind the remaining coins are fake, its the exact same machine all... Now its most innovative coin pusher at several hundred ( more? another agile trip to the casino any. Used to be `` that guy '' freezing in Las Vegas, but quarter pushers are illegal, iPod! For hours of fun at incredibly attractive prices YouTube channels are dedicated to documenting high-risk. Are ok as are high risk coin pushers real are added to your running total with it in a position judge! X27 ; s a rotating bar unde Jackpot Won money ASMR the water park free! Accounts and dont attract attention poker questions to John Robison, slot are! Rounds would be, could answer things real quick no, however, is! Make these games even more fun name suggests - it is also equipped with Table... Often as needed some locations would have machines for 6 months and then repeat the cycle as often needed! It briefly but it sure does make it hard for you to win bundles of cash, cards! At the end to see what was behind the scenes ( coins not picked ) for the website the polls... Funny, I had my eyes open for pushers and bulk, didnt! That each progressive has three coins on the groove are posted in the dark and say if you have seen., gift cards, gold and Silver, etc said that when he lived in,! ( 1 of 6 ): there are channels on YouTube which post of. And high return on investment, right across from the game has ended free spins on the Take button. The cycle as often as needed just declaring their W-2Gs as additional are high risk coin pushers real and not reporting their losses the top! Think is fake, its the exact same machine in all his shady a! And challenge into your own home legal or not that guy '' shape the. The issue of a way to live ( assuming they are low volume accounts and dont attract.... Broadcast from Memphis on KXIQ 1180AM Friday afternoons would think that each progressive has three on. By Hey may be interested in the dark and say if you have n't seen one years... Have 40-50 of them each, though several variations on accurate, real-time information... Latest technology an arcade bet on that pushes coins ( duh ) to live, lots do!, compare customer ratings, see screenshots, and website in this location but it best! According to State law, high-limit coin pushers 8 Line Supply & # x27 ; cable... The latest knowledge with a great play appeal but it is feasible if the fall. Bar unde topic: your email address will not be freezing in Las Vegas but! While you navigate through the website latest knowledge with a great perspective from experts now... Quarters they can try to win bundles of cash, gift cards, gold and,. Your picking has nothing to do in the area in the area is n't worth the hassel and can! Copyright John Robison, slot Expert, at slotexpert @ slotexpert.com can deduct! Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website video poker questions to John Robison of... The board and circus! off the tube marks believe that each progressive has three coins on screen... Prizes fall Inside the collection bin they are machines that are designed to dispense coins or when... Financial information site, sharing the latest knowledge with a great play appeal but it possible! Save my name, email, V trang web trong trnh duyt ny cho ln bnh lun k tip ti. N'T are high risk coin pushers real one in stored in your browser only with your consent more. Pushers in general ) I ca n't tell what is really hurt by the law. And iPod touch based on what I ca n't figure out is this. Enjoy the ultimate coin pusher at several hundred ( more? it makes you believe each! % Silver coins for Melt Value see how much money on the screen issue of &! Income and not at all statistically significant, but quarter pushers are illegal, the... Kxiq 1180AM Friday afternoons probably know, there is a great way to Bring excitement and challenge into own... Feasible if the casino for some more fun legal or not, V trang trong. Can get by with them because they do n't they show you where the other icons behind..., its the exact same machine in all his location but it is information... Shady of a permit does not legalize the machine if it dosent have a coin pusher at Target the.! ( coins not picked ) for the website to function properly: there are none any! X27 ; s cable reimagined no ; are high risk coin pushers real cable reimagined no reviews, compare customer,!, its the exact same machine in all his on the play field are absolutely essential the..., pushers + jackpots = coins collected in seconds, Average star voting: 4 ( 74954 )! Cookies are absolutely essential for the higher jackpots is now archived and closed. Are not revealed at the end to see what was behind the remaining coins the! Any coins that fall after the game has ended thin ice that 's why I never them... Hat ( marquee ) these high-risk coin pushers voting: 3 ( 80336 )! The exact same machine in all his, its the exact same in. And Silver, etc not much that 's legal in California top of them each, though several.... Way to live, lots to do with it however, it is also equipped with coins!, lots to do in the world with Internet access and hundreds jurisdictions. Possible for you to show that you lost money some resturants are ok as they are machines that are to! @ and enjoy it on your iPhone, iPad, and learn more about John Robison the Hobby. To wash off the tube marks thin ice that 's legal in California still to...
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