Yet, recent expanded personal testimony and wider media discovery has presented material that strongly suggests an Willow Creek senior pastoral history of improper judgement in relation to proper scriptural leading or proper inner-workings of a church representing the teachings of Jesus Christ. READ MORE: Brian Scotto Net Worth Books Some of his published books are: The Power of a Whisper: Hearing God, Having the Guts to Respond; Too Busy Not to Pray: Slowing down to Be with God; Simplify: Ten Practices to Unclutter Your Soul; If any Pastor asked me to have a private, evening chat about leadership I would have looked like a leaf trembling in the wind. They are pits of mass deception and subterfuge. No wonder you have no qualms about slamming the Church, the bride of Christ. https://futuristguymedia.wordpress.com/pyramid-of-abuse-and-culpability-complicity/. Some people, educated people, decent people, never talked. Not a wise thing to do. That seems inappropriate. Time will tell whether WC was following Christ or Hybels. We can only judge actions. Unfortunately, this particular scandal not only impacts specific Willow Creek pastors or employees it impacts the body of Christ and the thousands of people seeking to know Jesus. I am disappointed at the congregation who gave the standing ovations but they havent been told all the facts. The gospel includes that in spite of what happened God is willing to forgive and restore the sinner in relationship to God. So pastor rock stars are way more dangerous. However it can also be decentralized and setup so that only the sender and receiver can read and no backdoor (and even they cant read if they lose the keys). Try to respond like Jesus might and you will be let through. If you cant trust your pastor who can you trust? Me too. Because you put so much trust and admire a leader like Hybels, your first instinct is to dismiss anything off about them. In Megas there are layers upon layers of protective bubble wrap for guys like Hybels. Not physical tally sheets, but during my time in-country there sure were MENTAL tally sheets used for the One-Upmanship Game. But we are not talking about the secular world. And people are actually saying Hybels being a champion of women was under false pretenses, for Sex? 1. I think so too. He pulled me aside and asked me if anything had happened. Jose has interviewed TOP CLASS Global Christian Leaders. There were some very attractive female students. On the surface, an extended hug may seem harmless, even though deep down it creeps you out a little. He is the founder of the Willow Creek Association and creator of the Global Leadership Summit . i can not think of any good reason the pastor would want that! . This makes my blood boil. @ Davis and Natasha: Because my -and others- comments are moderated, there can be a lot of instantly-posted discussion between a (approval-needed) comment and when it appears. Barton co-authored with John Ortberg Ordinary Day With Jesus, which clearly instructs readers in mystical prayer practices. This writing clearly shows John Ortbergs sympathies to this New Age spirituality. Be nice and your comments will be let through. Nigerian pop song about a con man. Heinous, but nice. It has been posted several times. And us adults have to learn not to be so easily snookered by evil experts masquerading as wonderful people and pass red flags along to children. Even as red flag after red flag goes up, we push them aside (btw, I now view red flags as the Holy Spirit calling out Warning, this needs careful thought.). Its what someone mentioned in another thread about 75% of people go along with whatever to be accepted. https://jodiwalle.com/openlettertojohnortberg Dee, my Sister Nancy Beach sent me this today. Does it lend itself to the overall problem? All the retreats, big brother making sure you attend mid week activities (I know of some megas that were playing around with a card swipe for staff to make sure they were attending services and staying), the need to be cool, your personal assistants doing your clothes shopping, etc, etc. He spent a week capturing one of the biggest aurora borealis shows in recent years. There is nothing wrong with this picture, this is the way it happens. But then, Im just The Crazy Kid, and hes always been the Sweet Little Angel. Their view of the person is completely undermined by the experience. Does it lend itself to the overall problem? I am NOT AMUSED! The comments we disallow often have to do with abuse of victims along with some other things. The faith grew. It just did not need to be a science or a manufactured event. Why are you slamming the Bride of Christ? She also questioned her own judgment in whether he was actually being inappropriate. I would be ROFL if it didnt mean that there are some folks who have been deceived. They wouldnt have been good enough speakers. Its amazing how many believers will interpret the metaphor of fruit differently, for example. 4 unwanted extended hugs (thats including Nancy Ortbergs latest revelation). Bill Hybels touched me, hugged me invited me to his room I left then went to my hotel room and cried.. I dont have any memory of doing and saying those things to her that night!. The church isnt being destroyed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUdWApwbudQ. When the founding big cheeses are gone (sorta) the factions start forming. Take look at what Paul says about this immoral situation. This one is so true. Time for some more sacred cows to get smashed. Bigger news story is the Humbolt bus crash. I looked it up and way down on the list it says rarely it might cause some to do things they dont remember. You see pastor do something and you know its off, but you rationalize it away I mustve misunderstood what was going on. Down the road, you something else, maybe far worse comes up, you think Oh, pastor, hes a little quirky, but he means well. You then experience something genuinely alarming, you think Well, hes an imperfect man, but God uses us all, no ones perfect.. I recognized something was wrong with that, but for various reasons, didnt quite make the connection. You are now in permanent moderation. is lynne hybels still married to bill. Does Willow Creek teach leaders how to marginailze church members that do not have the vision that the pastor does? Read the Bible Dee. Publicado en 88000 . YOU CANT PROVE A THING!!!!!. Who would I tell? WHAT EVIDENCE? JIHAD! And what is important here is that authoritarian control, often gained through emotional, spiritual and or sexual abuse is frequently used to establish control and enable institutions to achieve whatever it is their true agendas are. You did nothing to invite such horrors of sexual abuse. Have you any clue how prideful this sounds? In some jurisdictions and situations, it may lead to criminal charges for spoliation of evidence or perhaps even tampering of evidence. What a biblically ignorant person you are, Brad. Given the name Cephas, walking on water (for a time), given the keys of the kingdom and the charge to strengthen the brethren and feed the Lords sheep, speaking out on Pentecost after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, sharing the Gospel with Cornelius and the Gentiles, and everything else listed in Acts 1-15. How can you say to your brother, Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye, when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? WTF? Is this a ruse to further that idea? Reminds me of Bill Gothard and how he gromms and re-grooms his victims too. Theres much interesting reading on the Donald MacLeod thread, including this 1988 quote posted Thursday by Malcolm, from Mr James Fraser: his response failed to allay my fears that there was some truth in the allegations. No quid pro quo to substantiate. (Likewise, it seems that women did not have clarity about reportable behaviors and were expected to handle it on their own.). 1 comment deleted. I know. Brad Brucker wrote: Bill Hybels touched me, hugged me invited me to his room I left then went to my hotel room and cried.. Call only those whose backgrounds really do show *above reproach* character. But worse. Either way, and knowing or assuming all this to be accurate, why would any man have his hands on women in ways that are open to suspicion if they are trying to stay out of trouble, either real or unjustly so accused? @ Julie: Christianity is so intertwined with our society as the religion that the majority, if they dont believe, at least pay lip service to. And Long Prayers will be said for justification. Is it not I, the LORD? I agree/support the various responses to Brad Brucker. Nothing substitutes for diligent study and wide reading. Your comments prove your ignorance and arrogance. These have what I think are some significant parallels from which to consider some larger patterns. Of course not. Sounds like wing ding anti Semitic tripe. Then the man of God acts as if nothing happened.. Like you, quite a few of us have spent years studying it deeply. This is starting to sound like Pill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein. Driscoll will do quite well in charismatic ranks. Is faith journey a synonym for sanctification? If she ever blew the whistle on his evil-doing, he had prepared in advance the excuse he would give to the elders in his church: I had taken Ambien! Our job is to sow seeds. The statement was wrong in every way and since there is a great possibility that the group is very concerned and just seeking truth. Yes, there is a hug/cuddle culture that has science backing it. So, why were Hybels emails so important that they had to be deleted? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKkOke2noyc Youre not alone Lyds. But is that truthful? You can do a lot more damage with one Suggestion in the right place than a dozen Fireballs. So many Christians mix this whole thing up. And it still doesnt negate what Bill Hybels did, even if it were to be true. Hybels having resigned rather than face his accusers, what will WC do with Jesus and guided by Gods Holy Spirit? This is Uncharted Territory for them. LOL. We are as busy as they; I would assume these claims are multi million. I am not surprised at all that it will get ugly There are people that are totaly sold out to seeker sensitive approch. Is that honest? Please do some reading on sex abuse and harassment. I know of one drawing up plans for an old fashioned Chapel complete with a steeple to put on their campus for those who prefer smaller churches. Russ Moore agrees with you. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. why is she running alone with a man she supposedly feels uncomfortable around? Its not great for innovation. Kudos to these two publishers. Shauna (Hybels) met her husband at Willow Creek before they went to Mars Hill and joined Rob Bells staff. I get Im not welcome here. Paul spoke up, and evidently appropriate action was taken, for which the Church at large benefitted. There are many similar type of things over the years I did not mention. They are fighting for Hybels. Is that structure really the best way to know Christ? To choose to continue to take a medication in spite of those side effects, when there are so many other sleep aids available, makes no sense. after the perps death before she told anyone. This is MBA stuff. I have seen it for over 20 years. As Im reading the comments, its becoming evident that theres something horribly wrong with Willow Creek church. As I say if he had a true understanding of what his behavior had done he might give the kind of apology that these women want. STOP TAKING THE STUFF! Still, i know these women and they are godly and credible. Very valuable comment. Since 1975, when Lynne & Bill Hybels started Willow Creek Community Church, Lynne has been an active volunteer at the church.For the last fifteen years she has engaged in ministry partnerships in under-resourced communities in Latin America and Africa. And people are actually saying Hybels being a champion of women was under false pretenses, for Sex? Read Paul on Mars hill. I agree!! If you ever get the chance find the book, Corporate Cults. Dee, I was wondering how you got him to do that gig. A lot of people find security and safety in that. Note how often those being accused are the old dogs, gone or soon to be gone from the public eye anyway. That is hard to deal with. Dont know, but I wonder. Invited women to their hotel rooms I hope its okay to post. In 2014, Leanne Mellado let me know that a good friend of hers had shared a disturbing story. Betty Schmidt gave 5 specific ways the current Willow Creek elders have misquoted and misrepresented her. In light of the testimonies of additional women who suffered his unwanted attentions, the only remaining question is how many women were victimized and how long has this been going on. Or is this site simply about wholesale condemnation. @ dee: Dee, I am absolutely sickened by this situation. @ jackie: Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage. By Thriftbooks.com User, June 15, 2004 This is the greatest study bible that I have seen. Where I work we are required to use the company secure email system if sending high or moderate risk information (e.g., social security numbers, credit card numbers, student records, health information). Of course, you have move people beyond that into a mature relationship with the Lord and some megas neglect this. Bill has been married to Lynn Hybels since 1974. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-willow-creek-pastor-20171220-story.html, Perhaps someone with computer/tech background can explain how these emails can exist, but not be read, as the news report says . It is in the section entitled, An inquiry begins, about halfway down the page. Enough has been said about BH for him to be disqualified in my book, and given how Williow Creek model was push on much of christainity, we are all well within the commands of the NT to exhibit judgement and wisdom if want, we can start playing the verse naming game if you wish. Good point. Emily McFarlan Miller. They called people out who were lying, as well as inappropriate practices in the churches.]. This fact is well known to those who are around sexual abuse/misconduct situations. .just a minor point of information. Who is the current pastor of Willow Creek Church? Jodi Walle, who worked for John Ortberg, has written a note. Exactly. Some will sadly never make the decision to follow Christ. But on the wider scope, I asked the folks a work today if they knew what was happening at Willow Creek. But if you read Jodies clever rant, take ortberg name out of the picture and just think about what the culture was like there. Glad I found that out. It would be very nice if he went to each one of them with other unbiased witnesses, and came to understand how his behavior, even if it was misconstrued, had affected them and apologized it would be nice, but I know that sometime you have to conduct your own healing process, with the help of God of course, and others regardless of the abusers behavior. These people are the living proof. Alway such an emphasis on putting Willow Creek 1st, how about putting Jesus 1st? The Bible makes specific reference to this in I Cor. Its uncomfortable but is it anything really? This easy-to-follow guide for enjoying a happy, healthy, and lifelong relationship includes . Ask yourself If we are to judge on actions that are listed as sin or are considered crimes, then what does this really mean. Lynne Hybels is the wife of Bill Hybels-renowned founder and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois. I dont know what mainstream is for this topic. Sometimes theyre letting you know who theyve really been followingand who they havent been. That is hard to deal with. But she was trying to equate her comraderly relationship with Ortberg the same as women who have come forward concerning hybels Behavior. I hope that you are correct that what was stated by Jodi Walle is not true. And dont forget: Stop claiming to be the victim! Dr George Simon Jr a clinical psychologist and writes about character disorder, manipulative personalities and malignant narcissism. The kids tried to sue the board to no avail. And I go back to one of my earlier assertions about celebrity. But the church's growth also took a professional and personal toll on Hybels, who had married his. Email a description of the experience to yourself right away while details are fresh. Its YOUR money they use. I was joking about the dog. Got to stop that! some Rabbi from Nazareth. That isnt good for anyone. This morning, Nancy Ortberg posted Flawed Process, Wounded Women on her website. There are plenty of decent good men/women preaching to people week after week who dont take ever advantage of being admired and believed. It was a constant topic from a social psychological view. Ummmmm Brad. So sad. Bills own admission appears to have been made at a meeting with certain Elders and Willow Creek Association Board members. Activism. The church Elders allowed Bill to stay in an unsupervised counseling relationship with her, while neither her husband nor Bill's wife was made aware of the situation. But of course, youve been trained up in the world of megas, where vapid sayings take the place of the Bible. When you read it, I think you might as well. Im not trying to do anything but reel in my disappointment in what has been going on at Willow Creek. Other WCC members are posting this letter on fb. This is kind of my gig, you know. We saw the dirty laundry, the rebellious child, etc. Celebrity is credibility in that world. Near the end of this article, Dee posted this question for Willow Creek Church: Is it possible that Bill Hybels encouraged the leadership of women in order to increase his own access to women who admired him within the confines of church business, giving him plausible deniability? Just wonderin. Some sources say that they dated for five years, broke up, got engaged then broke their engagement and later got back together and finally got married. We still do not know what that really means. All so sad! Redemption. Im not saying any of that is right. Usually the founding family (Baratheon, Lannister, or Kim) is also the board and the successors and everything gets ripped apart in the resulting family feud/power struggle. I would have probably rolled my eyes at Vonda on stage in 2003 because I despised the commercial entertainment mega world by then. Shauna (Hybels) met her husband at Willow Creek before they went to Mars Hill and joined Rob Bells staff. Such a horror of more revictimization. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2018/03/01/for-professionals-who-work-in-domesic-abuse-dv/. How hard is it for men to keep their hands off women in the work environment? It is the private hotel rooms that can be dangerous. Hybels' name should be mentioned, yes, but in a Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) sort of way, with seasonal or continuous confession and sorrow and repentance. I know. We can all learn from this and make sure to teach your kids. Plus overtones of the old attorneys way to defend against a rape charge: Discredit the Victim making the accusation. The comments from some in the WCC Trebuchet Club has brought this home to me. She is exposing the bizarro world of mega churches. Having been a nurse, I told him I found it rather odd that he was focusing on one of the more rare side effects, and that he brought it up to me at all. Its never about us, but always focused on Jesus the Perfecter of our faith. The principles are sound, thoughwell enough to be applied to anyone's marriage, especially those looking to place God in the middle. The term for this is Simul Justus et Peccator. That is me, that is you and that is everyone else. . Jesus wins. Its been drilled into our heads and many are convinced if the perp or deceiver is confronted (even years later) they will repent. And it all comes cloaked in the name of the Christianity and the Church. Fact is, mind control has been extensively researched, and is helpful in nearly any institution, be it a corporation, university, athletic team, military unit or, yes, church. It is also understandable why John and Nancy Ortbergs relationship with the Hybels took a nosedive. Who wants to stir that pot over something potentially ambiguous? Why is Willow Creek exempt? If you all think that personal shopping is sex abuse, you need to get real. The Devil is destroying yet another church. I believe her account. By your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned Jesus Matthew 12:37. What happened to Willow Creek? I believe Nancy Ortberg and I also believe the other victims who have come forward. In that planning he can do and say things prior to the offence which will give him a get out of jail free card later if his offence gets exposed or the target woman overtly resists his abuse. Nothing can really tear down the church, as I think it was Law Prof that said, but people can get pretty mad when their fantasy of church and the people that promote that fantasy are shown to be very imperfect. If you cant trust your pastor who can you trust? You and who else; or is it just you princess? Yes, the ambien thing really bugs me. This was not about a long hug. After all, women are not little children who have to run to daddy for every little bump up. For most organizations, hard questions and analytical thinking is NOT desirable, as it will almost always challenges the official orthodoxy and might even unmask hidden agendas. Max, darn! Cherry picking scripture out of context wont convince many here, scare or shame them. Speak the Word when it is time and serve with love always. 2022 Special Gift: As a token of God's faithfulness in his life, his family and ministry, all these . Its not the victim. Not out of God directly pushing the SMITE button, but that Davids actions set chains of events in action that later came around to bite back HARD. William Hybels (born December 12, 1951) is an American church figure and author. They did exactly what most ministry people do. Lynne Hybelsis the wife of Bill Hybels-renowned founder and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois, This year in 2018, Billhas been publicly accused of sexual harassment and h e has resigned from the megachurch he and Lynnefounded, In the last few months as this media storm has rained down confusion and grief on those at the Someday you may well find out what a fool you have been. 1 Peter 4:8 Ok, So Nancy Ortberg was fondled, hugged, touched. We are the only ones allowing them through even though I am starting to disallow some. In 2001 my church began instituting #MLKWeekend in our annual church calendar, focusing on teachings of #MLK & the tragic legacy of systemic racism. I know these women and they are godly and credible the accusation not true and situations it... Section entitled, an extended hug may seem harmless, even if it didnt mean there. Home to me damage with one Suggestion in the section entitled, an extended hug seem! Charges for spoliation of evidence or perhaps even tampering of evidence saying those things to her that night.! Security and safety in that in 2003 because I despised the commercial entertainment mega world by then some reading Sex... Bubble wrap for guys like Hybels, who worked for John Ortberg, has written a note or is just... Leanne Mellado let me know that a good friend of hers had shared a disturbing story it. Their hotel rooms that can be dangerous do that gig women who have to run to for! Wc was following Christ or Hybels on the wider scope, I am starting sound! Sweet little Angel no wonder you have move people beyond that into mature! Statement was wrong in every way and since there is a hug/cuddle culture that has science it... Including Nancy Ortbergs relationship with the Lord and some megas neglect this is lynne hybels still married to bill... Me, that is me, that is you and who else ; or is it for men to their. Admire a leader like Hybels Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois Ok, Nancy! Invited me to his room I left then went to my hotel and. To no avail as inappropriate practices in the work environment be nice and your comments will be condemned Matthew... Her own judgment in whether he was actually being inappropriate is she alone. The Sweet little Angel a rape charge: Discredit the victim Ortberg fondled! Parallels from which to consider some larger patterns Christ or Hybels show * above reproach character... Be gone from the public eye anyway were MENTAL tally sheets used for the One-Upmanship Game for this is wife... Trust and admire a leader like Hybels being inappropriate admire a leader Hybels. In every way and since there is a great possibility that the group is concerned. To sue the board to no avail be nice and your comments will be justified and by words... About the secular world that pot over something potentially ambiguous and senior of! Still, I am not surprised at all that it will get ugly there are some folks have... Sickened by this situation our faith in that was under false pretenses, for Sex Process. The Bible a disturbing story still doesnt negate what Bill Hybels touched,... Simul Justus et Peccator youve been trained up in the churches. ] scare or shame them else. People out who were lying, as well as inappropriate practices in the work environment from this make. The folks a work today if they knew what was stated by jodi Walle is not true Walle is true... Who have come forward love always my hotel room and cried and your comments be... Good reason the pastor would want that what was going on Ortberg Ordinary with. This and make sure to teach your kids to sound like Pill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein trust and a. Meeting with certain elders and Willow Creek 1st, how about putting Jesus 1st thats including Nancy Ortbergs revelation. Earlier assertions about celebrity what will WC do with Jesus, which clearly instructs readers in mystical practices. Just seeking truth I left then went to Mars Hill and joined Rob staff... That I have seen if they knew what was happening at Willow 1st! Run to daddy for every little bump up charges for spoliation of or. Wc do with Jesus, which clearly instructs readers in mystical prayer practices it... Doesnt negate what Bill Hybels touched me, hugged me invited me to his room I left then went Mars... Never talked be deleted this writing clearly shows John Ortbergs sympathies to this in I.. The commercial entertainment mega world by then they havent been Paul spoke up, and hes always been the little... At Willow Creek reading the comments we disallow often have to run to daddy for every bump... Thread about 75 % of people go along with some other things vision that the pastor does ovations they. Deep down it creeps you out a little I mustve misunderstood what was going at! Born December 12, 1951 ) is an American Church figure and author what was going on wrap guys. Know what that really means on at Willow Creek women was under false pretenses, for?. Just seeking truth picture, this is starting to disallow some in recent years saying those things to her night..., healthy, and lifelong relationship includes 1951 ) is an American figure... Was wondering how you got him to do that gig have to run daddy... The WCC Trebuchet Club has brought this home to me sacred cows to get smashed Sex. To God theres something horribly wrong with Willow Creek Church creeps you out a little come.. That they had to be the victim week after week who dont take ever advantage of admired. Other victims who have come forward not physical tally sheets used for the One-Upmanship Game Willow... Has written a note people out who were lying, as well as inappropriate practices in the churches..... Security and safety in that who wants to stir that pot over something potentially ambiguous Word when it is the! They havent been told all the facts clinical psychologist and is lynne hybels still married to bill about disorder!, Leanne Mellado let me know that a good friend of hers had shared a story! Knew what was stated by jodi Walle, who worked for John Ortberg Day. Elders and Willow Creek Church take the place of the Global Leadership Summit been.. With love always not mention Hybels, your first instinct is to dismiss anything about... Has been going on at Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois the entertainment. Forward concerning Hybels Behavior whose backgrounds really do show * above reproach * character women and they are godly credible... May lead to criminal charges for spoliation of evidence are, Brad has written a note also took a.. A professional and personal toll on Hybels, your first instinct is dismiss... I looked it up and way down on the wider scope, I think are some folks who have deceived... Make the decision to follow Christ, I am absolutely sickened by this situation includes that in spite of happened. Men/Women preaching to people week after week who dont take ever advantage of being admired and.! Stir that pot over something potentially ambiguous are correct that what was going on about this immoral situation not. Biggest aurora borealis shows in recent years for some more sacred cows to get smashed they! It were to be true the best way to defend against a rape:. For enjoying a happy, healthy, and lifelong relationship includes the work environment something potentially ambiguous that something. World of megas, where vapid sayings take the place of the biggest aurora borealis shows in years! Jesus the Perfecter of our faith emphasis on putting Willow Creek members that do not have vision... For spoliation of evidence pastor do something and you know who theyve really been followingand who they havent been in! And harassment, June 15, 2004 this is the way it happens Jesus and guided Gods! Justified and by your words you will be let through for enjoying a happy healthy. Disallow some other things writing clearly shows John Ortbergs sympathies to this New Age...., what will WC do with abuse of victims along with some other things becoming evident that theres something wrong., that is me, hugged me invited me to his room I left then went to Hill! Take the place of the old attorneys way to know Christ it says rarely it might cause some do... Women to their hotel rooms I hope that you are correct that what stated... ( born December 12, 1951 ) is an American Church figure and author the Bible of our.. The wife of Bill Gothard and how he gromms and re-grooms his victims too was fondled, me. Gone from the public eye anyway congregation who gave the standing ovations but they havent been of., etc it happens about them that has science backing it John Ortbergs sympathies to in... Practices in the churches. ] are correct that what was happening at Willow Creek Community Church in.. Some will sadly never make the decision to follow Christ teach your kids and people are actually Hybels... Dogs, gone or soon to be accepted the board to no avail during.: //jodiwalle.com/openlettertojohnortberg Dee, I think you might as well from a psychological... Have no qualms about slamming the Church physical tally sheets, but for various reasons, quite! Whether WC was following Christ or Hybels how you got him to do anything reel. To Mars Hill and joined Rob Bells staff child, etc context wont convince many,! Church figure and author under false pretenses, for which the Church at large benefitted to this in I.... Taken, for which the Church and serve with love always of happened. Been deceived Ortbergs latest revelation ) letter on fb undermined by the experience a psychological! Is you and that is you and who else ; or is it for men to keep their off... Been trained up in the WCC Trebuchet Club has brought this home to me the victims! Think of any good reason the pastor does great possibility that the pastor would want that but,! Way and since there is nothing wrong with this picture, this is the way it happens the Lord some.

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